Out of the Box Coaching and
Breakthroughs with the Enneagram, Mary R. Bast, Ph.D. 
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Staying Awake
(Interview with an Enneagram Two)

I'm collecting accounts of the change process so others can see how each of the Enneagram styles goes through increasing self-awareness and, in particular, learn from your story as a Two. What does the word "transformation" mean to you? 

It's "becoming anew." It's also realizing potentials. Certainly it's changing from where you are or have been to a new place, a positive change, beginning to realize potentials that were already built into you when you came into the world. 

So think back, then, for two or three key examples of how you have realized your potential. It might have been an event, it might have been a process over time.

Certainly going to medical school was a transforming experience. It taught me how to become more analytical, to set myself apart from circumstances and view them third person in an objective way, in order to intervene. When I went to medical school one of my greatest concerns was going into an anatomy lab and passing out. I'd had several experiences as an orderly in a hospital where I'd get weak-kneed at the sight of blood. It didn't go away immediately, but over time I became objective and it didn't bring up personalized feelings. By the time you finish your internship you almost wear blood on your shoes as a badge of having fought the war and overcome all this stuff. Then, as I saw people through medical school and residency, I was able to distance myself somewhat, take feeling out, and be able to objectively assess and work on whatever needed to be done at the time. 

On the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator your preferences are ENTP. And I don't remember; how strong is your Thinking preference?

"T" is way off the scale. 

Objective, logical thinking is a strong preference for you. So we don't have the stereotype of a Two who has a Feeling preference.

Another transforming experience for me has been my wife's mental illness, which has revealed to me the nature of humanness in general, and particularly my own humanness, as I see it reflected in her illness. I don't think I've ever told anyone this, but it reminds me of a story in medicine about a Canadian trapper who accidentally shot himself in the stomach. He was out in the wilderness and got medical care in a fairly primitive setting.  As a result of that he ended up with a large fistula between his stomach and his abdominal wall so researchers were able to observe what happens, feed him something and see that acid would be produced, for example. That's a close analogy for my wife's illness. I can see in her a fragmented person and I can see what happens internally to a person. She's a multiple personality, so there's no one piece of her as a whole. She's divided into several persons, and certain functions and feelings have been relegated to each of them. And to see how all that interacts is like looking into the stomach and seeing what happens when certain stimuli go in. 

As if the dynamics that would otherwise be more integrated and complex are separate and concrete.  And how has that changed you? 

I'm more empathetic with people. It allows me to understand who they are and where they're coming from. It also allows me to be more sensitive to individuals and how they respond to different stimuli or interactions, as opposed to thinking "Get over it," or "Why are you reacting this way?" Part of it is by interacting with my wife, part of it is from the reading her illness has spawned. Books about multiple personality include personality development in general, which gives me a lot more insight into what makes us who we are. I've also read Scott Peck and others who focus on how we become who we are. It's been challenging, first of all, to understand the nature of this disease, and why she does certain things. It has allowed me to understand my caretaking, and to move away from being negative to being more positive. I came to realize how I had used caretaking as a means of controlling others. 

So now it might be less conditional, giving simply because you're able to. 

Right. It also has made me look at balancing conflicting values, which is work I'm certainly not done with. A lot of that is centered around maintaining the marriage, which has been very difficult. 

What are those conflicting values?

It's balancing my needs and getting those met with some core values around commitment and obligations and caretaking in general. There are a lot of emotional and social needs that are unmet through the marriage, primarily because those are things that are highly sensitized through flashbacks for her. Both sexual intimacy and other forms of intimacy. Certainly sexual intimacy is highly stigmatized for her. It's as though her sexuality has been obliterated. There's a lot about sexuality she doesn't understand, and she'll ask me or her therapist simple and basic questions that most of us either learn through experience or intuitively know. Also, emotional intimacy is difficult for her. A book that's meant a lot to me is Love and Survival. The author, Dean Ornish, is a physician who writes clinically about the impact of lack of intimacy on physical health. People get sick and are more likely to die without intimacy in their lives. They don't have connectedness. And it was interesting to me that my wife was unable to read the book. That kind of intimacy -- knowing another, being vulnerable at that level of trust -- was very threatening to her. She has very strong alters who block anything that seems to threaten them.

You seem so centered, so relaxed compared to the last time I saw you. I'm happy for you to finally be your own boss, and to work with a partner whose values are similar to yours. 

That job was stressful, especially during the merger. That was the most difficult time of my life. I'm feeling more relaxed with this job change. I love what I'm doing.  I just hope I can make enough money to keep doing it. The last guy I worked with did unspeakable things to me a couple of times. He belittled me at the beginning of a meeting in front of the whole leadership team. My staff was appalled. He didn't have an appreciation for the people side of the business. So when I realized he was going to be in my space big time I said, "Time for me to move on." This job feels good, it feels right, and I've tried to pay close attention to position myself where it was something I really wanted to do. 

Great. So you were talking about your wife and how difficult intimacy has been. And you've been trying to balance this commitment to your marriage and your role as a good caregiver with the wish to have your own needs met. 

Very much so. It started down the path that this was going to be a short-term phenomenon. When this all erupted on the scene seven years ago, I was hearing, "Well, in six months to a year things will start getting better." But we've been down several paths of taking her to specialists, to a specialty center, adding people to her therapy team. We've been doing googobs of therapy. 

Googobs? Is that a scientific word? 

That's a scientific word that means a WHOLE LOT of therapy! Thank goodness we have as much money as we do or we'd have been forced to sell the house long ago.  But that has also served to support wishful thinking about what might be and as time passes it's more and more difficult to support that kind of hope. Then it comes down to "What needs do I have that can never be met in this relationship? Or do I look at meeting my own needs and leaving the relationship?" I've been in counseling for the last couple of years. My wife and I have talked more specifically about whether to stay in the relationship. This is also very frustrating for her because she knows I have needs that aren't getting met and she'd like to but is just unable to. At times we've come close to agreeing both of us might be better off if we were separated. And I've explored with my therapist how some aspects in our relationship probably promote her remaining ill instead of getting better. We were pretty heavily into a process of coming to some kind of resolution about our relationship. But that was at a time when I was trying to make the transition to this job and it was too much change in too little time, more than I could deal with.

You said some of your dynamics might contribute to her illness. Could you give an example?   

Part of it is a culture around protecting her from knowing. There's a secrecy about what happened to her in her childhood. She'll often say, "None of this happened. I made it all up." And she goes to three therapists for six to eight hours of therapy a week. One of the therapists suggested all this therapy has kept the status quo going. She's not had to go in the hospital for several years and she's been functional day-to-day, keeping house, cooking, taking care of the kids, and other things she likes. I've learned to not make demands she can't meet. This all creates a protective environment that allows her to be disintegrated as an individual, yet maintain what to most people from the outside looks like a normal life. 

That's a real paradox for you, isn't it? You value being a good caregiver, and at the same time the very things you're doing might be contributing to her illness.  I can see you're feeling anxious as we talk about this. 

Yes, and that's a difficult area. For me it gets down to the conflict between staying and leaving. And at times I've had to confront myself about staying for my benefit and not hers, that my staying is to her detriment. To leave, there are obviously financial issues. Then there's a whole set of issues about "What will people think?" One of the things that's made it so difficult for me is that hardly anyone identifies her as being as ill as she is. She masks it so well, she plays those roles so well. People would say, "He must be some liar, making all this stuff up," because to outward appearances she's a very nice, pleasant, quiet person. 

It sounds like you have a good therapist. You're in touch with the paradox of the relationship dynamics. You're really in touch with the image aspects of leaving: "What will people think?" 

Yes. By the way, he's a pastoral counselor so he understands the spiritual aspects, and the nice thing he does for me is being very nonjudgmental. He also doesn't have a bias toward marriage, doesn't believe that all marriages should be maintained at all costs. The other thing is that he has treated a number of individuals and couples with multiple personality disorders, so he has a realistic view of what goes on. He has examples of how other patients respond in similar circumstances. I really got lucky with him.  

So, you talked about the dynamics of your marriage as a transforming process. And clearly I've heard a change in your level of insight, in your ability to stand outside and see the patterns that have been created. What else would you say is changing or has changed in you? 

My whole knowledge of intimacy, understanding what intimacy is for me and what potentials there are in a relationship, even though they may not be realized in this relationship. A lot of that has come from looking at how I feel and the reading I've done. I have greater understanding and at least have a better idea of how my needs could be met. It also has helped me to understand what might or might not be possible with my wife in terms of intimacy. And it certainly has allowed me to expand my capacity for other emotionally intimate relationships, nonsexual relationships where at least you can get some of those intimacy needs met. I've allowed myself to experience affection with other women, and some intimate relationships with men. So even though the sexual intimacy can't be met, I've identified two things in relationships with other people: I am capable and it can happen with other people, which is nice to know, and it's met some of the needs I've had. 

Did these relationships develop as a consequence of your greater insight, or did you take steps to build these friendships? 

They were friendships where opportunities to extend them to a more intimate realm came and I felt O.K. about it. Those were important steps for me to take, because I was able to recognize and move through some of the negative dynamics that came from being married to my wife, as well as becoming a physician. The very objectivity I developed in becoming a physician allowed me to stay in the marriage very early on. We had severe problems at that time, and having that happen in the middle of medical training, I became very practiced at denying myself intimacy. So these recent experiences opened the door, gave me a feeling of what intimacy could be like. One was with a nurse I worked with. She and I had become closer by working together, and she had revealed some information about her past: she'd grown up in a home with emotional abuse and had worked her way through that.  And I told her some of my past, particularly my relationship with my wife and its difficulties. Along the way she had difficulties in her marriage -- a situation where she'd grown a lot and her husband was the same 20-year-old she'd married. She's a psych nurse who knows quite a bit about multiple personality, and we talked about how can you live with someone with multiple personality. Then my father had a stroke while he and my mother were traveling in their motor home 40 miles north of Anchorage, Alaska. In pretty short order I had to get on a plane, hop a ride out there, see what was going on, and make arrangements to transfer him back here. When the news came about his  stroke, I was afraid he'd die and I wouldn't be there, and when this nurse sat down and offered me support, I broke down and cried -- which I've rarely done in any circumstance. She came over and put her hands on my back, and the sensation was different than anything I'd ever felt before -- a very caring and loving touch.   

I was going to ask if part of the change in you was to allow yourself to hug or be hugged, touched by people? 

Not very much. And when we left that conversation she also gave me a full-body hug, not an A-frame hug. It was very genuine and meant a lot to me. So that was transforming in understanding more about intimacy. The down side is that it makes me hungry for more, and it's not available. There's another woman I've been friends with for a long time, and I've had some very intimate discussions with her. She's been through a series of disappointing relationships and has taken a very spiritual approach to her life. So we get together every month or two to talk over breakfast or lunch. A couple of times ago I told her the relationship with her meant a lot to me, and she said it meant a lot to her, too. I sometimes wonder if I hadn't been married to my wife if I'd ever have made some of the discoveries I've made. If life would have sailed on in its usual fashion, would I ever have found spiritual direction and put down a path of trying to transform or grow? 

How old are you now? 

Fifty-one. 

My experience is that while it doesn't show up for everybody, for someone like you who has a spiritual focus it usually shows up by the fifties or sixties. It sometimes shows up sooner if there's a crisis. 

I recognize now why I was attracted to and stayed with my wife in the early part of our marriage. It was, I think, because I had a need to avoid intimacy at that point. It made me feel good to be able to be a caregiver, to have someone in need to take care of and provide for.  

It's fascinating that of the two examples you've given me so far, one is moving away from feeling and trying to be more objective, and the other is trying to move away from being so objective and back into feeling, but in a different place -- into feeling about yourself, being really true to yourself, discovering what your needs are, finding healthy ways to begin to get them met, and to feel O.K. about that. 

The other transforming experience was my father's stroke. It was a great experience for me to go up there and be with my parents at that time. My wife got angry because I didn't take her with me, but I said, "I want to do this myself." I was there six days and stayed with my mother in their motor home nearby, spent a lot of time talking with my parents. I was able to hold my father, and we both cried. Being able to do something I don't often get a chance to do -- just to be there with them. I was able to be candid with my mother about my relationship with my wife, shared with her that I wasn't sure I was going to be able to stay in the relationship. She had a good understanding, and I think -- were it to come to that -- they would support me. The fortunate thing is that Dad made a rapid recovery.  

What about that situation was transforming? How are things different? 

I'm in a different place with my parents.  We're closer, it deepened that relationship. It also reminded the clock is ticking for all of us. That someday they won't be there and neither will I, and I have to think about the choices I make, think about mortality. I have to be careful not to let things just happen. I need to think through what's important, what do I want to achieve, what do I want in my life, and take actions that will make that happen. Anchorage is a relatively small town, though spread out a lot, but there are walkways and parks all over the place, maybe a hundred miles of biking and walking paths. Right across from the hospital was this forest with a small lake -- dark blue, with pine trees and a mountain in the background. Several times I went out walking there. I like to walk in nature, away, where I reflect and try to get down to some things.  So it was very helpful to have that emotional event, the intimacy, and time to process my feelings and also deal with some of my wife's feelings at that time.

What you've begun to get into is what helps you stay on the path. Clearly, you've invited other people as resources. The nature of that has changed over time but you haven't been at all loathe to let people help you. 

And that was a transformation. In the work you and I did with the 360 feedback two years ago the response came out that I was willing to help others but didn't allow others to help me. At that time I began letting people into my life in emotional areas. I told one of my colleagues about my wife, and he continues to be supportive and we stay in touch, even though he's moved to another state. Another colleague who became a close friend had some very painful parts of his life that he talked about. And the third member of our team eventually became a real resource, too. It changed our relationship and turned out to be a mutual exchange when her mother had a terminal illness. 

You were also seeing your pastoral counselor at the time. 

Yes. He was the first one I sought counseling from and that was five years ago, after I'd been married for 24 years. He referred me to the person I'm working with now. 

So it did take you a while, then, to reach the point of allowing yourself to seek help? 

Yes. Up to that time the problems we had were "all her problems" as I looked at it. If she would just get herself fixed, our relationship would be O.K. When I started with the pastoral counselor, I began taking on more responsibility for my part in it. Some of the reading I'd done also convinced me I had to take on responsibility. Dean Ornish wrote that "marriage is not about finding the right person, it's about becoming the right person." That's something I've held onto and it's sent me down the personal transformation path. Just learning how to cope or deal with her was the initial motive, but pretty quickly I began to understand the parts of me that needed to change, regardless of what happened to the marriage. 

And you were open with me about how that showed up in the work setting.  You were the "big Daddy" on the team, making sure everybody got along. 

Yeah. The "glue," resolving conflicts. And pretty much during my career I had continued to have that role of trying to make the pieces fit. 

You've done some super personal work in the last few years. 

I recently read Scott Peck's A World Waiting to be Reborn where he writes about "false civility." To him, civility is not being artificially nice or patronizing but being honest and genuine in a relationship, whether it's a marriage, or work, or whatever. He describes not being genuine for the purpose of getting along as being "uncivil."  And I've begun to think about that, to improve on what I have considered my role of being the "go-between" but at times sacrificing honesty for peace. Reading Peck's book clearly pointed out how being "uncivil" does not yield good results for a relationship, that you have to work to a point of trust where you can be honest and genuine, and then you can resolve whatever conflicts that produces. The book is divided into two parts, one about marriage and family and the other  about business, applying the same principles. He said he could only think of two things that validate why people should get married - one is that intact families are best for raising children to be productive citizens, and the second, more compelling, reason to get married is to create friction!  He says through friction you create conflict, and resolving conflict creates personal, spiritual growth. So you can mutually create spiritual growth in each other. He had some great examples. In fact, one thing I like about Peck is that he uses a lot of personal examples I can relate to. He talked about his own journey and his relationship with his wife, Lily: "I thought for the first 12 years or so of the marriage that my job was to make Lily happy." He said he did a lot of things that were false civility. Then he learned over time to be vulnerable to the truth, to be honest, and to structure a relationship where he could work through the friction and actually produce something positive over time. They'd even reached the point of separating or divorcing until they learned how to manage the friction. And I've held onto the hope that would be possible for us. That's what I struggle with: letting go of that hope. Is it possible, or is the gap so wide it can't be bridged? Seeing in print what he said about good marriages made an impression on me, distinguishing between lengthy marriages and good marriages. 

He really resonates with you. 

Yes, he does. There's another book, Beyond Chaos by Gregg Piburn, written for spouses who live with someone with a chronic illness. His wife has a musculoskeletal disease with a lot of pain and weakness, hard to diagnose, no good treatment; chronic fatigue syndrome is part of it. They were a very athletic couple, did a lot of hiking and backpacking, until she was in her late twenties. He talks about how they learned to live with the illness and have a productive relationship. He said there are four levels in a relationship. The basic level is "false community," where you ignore problems or conflicts, cover them over, try to keep things on an even keel. You just "be nice" and "everything will be O.K.," but honesty and vulnerability go by the wayside. The next level is that every once in a while your defenses will be down or something will happen, and then you're into a period of chaos in the relationship. In his thinking, most people seem to reside in "false community" and some in "chaos." It's very hard for people to get beyond the "chaos" stage. After "chaos"  is "vulnerability," where you each become vulnerable and open to what the other has to say, what is true for the other. Beyond "vulnerability" is "true community" where you enter into a relationship of personal change for each of you and therefore in the relationship. 

And I know you've used prayer. Anything more you'd want to say about prayer? Meditation? 

I've primarily used prayer. I haven't used other forms of meditation. In the Ornish book, he talks about levels of intimacy, the primary intimacy being with oneself. He believes God resides within us, and that primary intimacy is with the God within us. My reading last year on Western modes of meditation helped me conceptualize my connectedness to God, about the God within us and the voice that's there. Both books emphasized listening to that voice: the voice is always there, the message and the wisdom are there, so it's learning how to be quiet enough to listen. That changed my practice of prayer somewhat. I have at times been in a more meditative form of prayer. A few times I've gotten wisdom from that voice, and those times have been marked by an incredible sense of peace and well-being and knowledge of what to do. I don't hear the voices during prayer. They come at other times, sometimes when I'm driving. It's an inner voice that's very clear. You just know. I've been able to experience one of the things Ornish talks about, learning to be alone but not lonely, to be alone and not be uncomfortable with that, and not fill in the space with busy work or watching TV, but to simply be alone. I've done that a number of times. In fact, that's one of the things I like about this office, being here all by myself gives me some opportunities to just be alone. 

For an extrovert that's a mid-life transition, also, to be able to be alone and even relish it, where before you might only gain energy from interacting with others. Any other ways you've kept yourself on the path? 

Some of the friends I have will periodically call and say, "How are you doing?" or "It doesn't sound like you're doing too well, what's going on?"  Some kind of a feedback system to be accountable to has been very helpful, keeps me honest. 

So you've learned many ways to help yourself stay on the path.  As you look back, what are ways you've stopped yourself, or gotten in your own way? Times when you've said, "Woops, I did that again!" Any stuck-ness?  

Oh, stuck-ness is a big one with me. I get very discouraged, feel depressed, a sense of hopelessness, and recognize what I call "circling the drain" events, the same things all over again, same feelings, same things going on in my life and getting nowhere… like when you pull the plug and the water's circling the drain. Sometimes it will be triggered by outside events. Some of the most powerful for me are things my wife will do. At times I kind of "normalize" things to myself in our relationship: things are cruising along, meals are on the table, there are "Hi's" and "Goodbye's" and reasonably pleasant conversation; and then, wham, one of these bizarre things will come out of the blue that multiples are capable of. It might be night terrors where I can't awaken her, or dreams she reveals, or she'll ask an incredibly naïve question. The most extreme is when an alter will make itself known. 

That pulls you back into being the caretaker? 

Sometimes, I can't help it. For many people, especially for her, all her alters are small children in a great deal of pain, whimpering children probably 3-4 years of age. I'd feel almost cruel to not reach out. I want to just hug her. But coincidental with that is the "circling the drain" feeling and I think, "Here I am again!  Is this ever going to end or change in a substantial way?" 

You're doing all this work, you're really moving in a direction of authenticity, then something comes up and engages the ego, the caretaker, and coincidental with that is this feeling of "circling the drain." 

It's a duality feeling, "How can you leave this person who is so pathetic, who needs so much," but yet it's a situation where you're sure not going to get any of your needs met if this continues. I have had a very clear message from my inner voice… a series of four occasions spread out over several years. The last one, about a year ago, was "It's time to go, I have other work for you to do." Just as clear as it could be, along with a calm feeling and a sense of truth and rightness.  I wrestled and struggled with actually following through on that and the follow-up message was, "Trust me." It was that simple and plain. I wasn't asking any questions. And that's come to me three or four times since the original message, "Trust me." 

Anything else you'd like to share with me about the down times, the times when you're stuck, when you're resisting movement?

My woodworking continues to be a way of sorting things out. While I'm doing the work, things are processing. A lot of it I do without conscious thinking, but it's also extremely tactile, so it's a combination of being tactile and visual, and pretty soon I'm shaping more than an object and it's become a live metaphor for what I'm doing. Recently it's been very helpful for me to make things for other people: I think of that person and that relationship while I'm making and shaping what I'm working on. When I left my last job I took the four senior managers out to dinner and gave each of them a cherry shaker box, saying how I thought of them as I shaped and sanded and made this beautiful thing for each of them. It was very powerful for all of us (voice cracks with emotion). That's one thing I do when I feel stuck and it's a real lifesaver for me. On the negative side I like to buy things, and fairly selectively. I don't buy a lot of junk, I buy nice stuff.  But having or owning things takes on a special meaning for me at some of those times. I've had a number of big expenditures, like buying a motor home. I'll have to say about the things I buy that if I use them at a later time it does provide some relief. I love to drive that motor home. I spent a lot of money building a hobby garage two years ago. I've subsequently bought two hobby cars that I drive. Sometimes I'll buy expensive tools when I feel stuck or in a slump. None of them have been issues of affordability, but it feels like too much emphasis on materialism, and part of it is when I'm most likely to do that: when I'm feeling a real big gap in my relationship with my wife, I recognize what I'm doing as substituting the pursuit of possessions for intimacy.  

It sounds as if even while you're doing it, part of you is observing yourself doing it and knowing why you're doing it, which is a bit of a transformational shift. 

It makes our relationship more difficult because my wife's nature is to be very conservative, to save money. So in making one of these extravagant purchases, for a long time I used to look for her approval. That took away any joy I'd have and I'd end up depriving myself because she'd be unhappy about the purchase. With the first therapist I learned, "You're not going to break the bank, no one's going to go without food, your kid can still go to college, so if it really means something to you, go ahead and do it, quit looking for her approval." I've been able since then to enjoy the purchase. And we've developed more effective means of communicating, "I want to do this, this is why, this is where the money's going to come from." So I've learned to deal better with how she views the purchases but still, deep down, I know I am substituting it for something else in my life.  

If you were speaking to someone who's struggled with the same dynamics you have, with taking care of others, seeing the other as the one with the problem, then beginning to uncover your own needs, working through this dilemma of "how do I meet my needs and break free of the over-done caretaking," what advice would you offer? 

One of the very helpful things for me came from my work with you -- having a third party talk to other people who know and interact with you, and have it reflect good and accurate information, so you have a greater understanding about who you are, what you're doing, and what impact it has on other people. That was the first time I was exposed to the notion of the negative aspects of caretaking. That triggered a lot of self-evaluation, self-exploration for me, and led to much of the reading and subsequent work I've done. I still have that summary report, and every once in a while I pull it out and re-read it, to remind myself where I've been and where I am now compared to that. 

Enneagram Twos, Threes, and Fours all have issues with image. For the Two, specifically, pride in their ability to take care of all these people can make it difficult to look at oneself. It's terrifying for people who have that much investment in caretaking to even think of seeing themselves the way other people see them. So I suspect you were ready for that. 

I think I was. Also, the process was more palatable to me because the feedback was based on accurate information, specific questions you asked, and it was totally believable because more than one person said the same things. 

My last question has to do with your image or metaphor of transformation. 

For me the metaphor is a journey. I used to think the journey was destination-specific, but now I realize it's life-long, a quest for understanding, deepening the spiritual ties, improving all kinds of relationships: with God, with myself, with others around me. You never get there, and the purpose of life is to  continue on the journey, but not to get to the end. So I'm toiling along on the journey at this point, having had some real ups and downs. I think I'm on an upswing. Changing the nature of my work and some of my work relationships has been helpful. I've made progress with my wife. We've both been a lot more honest in our relationship, and we've put in motion some pivotal events. She's agreed to try hypnotherapy by the end of the year and she may go to Menninger's for 2-3 months.  Sometimes in a structured program for multiples people are able to make big leaps. And to the degree that our dynamics are part of it, being away could be helpful. 

Any final comments? 

Yes. Scott Peck believes in marriage but also recognizes some marriages can be destructive. And if she and I go through a good process… much of it what we have been through, including lengthy introspection… I would accept it as a full possibility that my wife could be better because she is away from me and that could be the best thing for both of us. Right now I need more data before I can leave this marriage.  I think we're in the process, and still making progress on that part of the journey.