Out of the Box Coaching and
Breakthroughs with the Enneagram, Mary R. Bast, Ph.D. 
Copyright © 1999. All rights reserved. Revised: January 18, 2012  

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The Seasons of One's Life
(Interview with an Enneagram Three)

Tell me in what way you know you’re an Enneagram Three. How has that shown up in your life? 

Threes are very achievement oriented, very outer oriented. They’re not in touch with what they feel. It’s more what they look like, how they appear. So all the energy that goes out is being a success, achieving and putting on a show, putting on a face you want others to see and hiding what’s underneath – not even being aware of what’s underneath. That’s the basic pattern. In a nutshell I’d say you might associate Threes with the peacock. It struts around and shows off its feathers. 

And how has that shown in your life, specifically? 

All my life, until I started doing some real work, it was “How things look” as opposed to how I really am. “How do I appear outwardly?” It’s like living a lie: “How do I fool people?” You’re not that conscious of it. Image was really important. The image of how people saw you was more important than anything. 

In trying to find the right word to describe Threes' lack of connection to their feelings, a friend used the word “heartless” and I said, “No. It's not a conscious disdain for feelings, it's more as if others are speaking in tongues when they talk about feelings. Until a Three gets closer to the authentic self, feelings are not a familiar language.

No, you’re just not aware. I did a lot of therapy before I started with the Enneagram. You’re just not in touch with what’s really authentic, because you’re so covered up with the mask, it becomes what you think is real, what you think is authentic, but it’s just a mask you’re wearing. We’re living in a Three culture – so you can see what goes on out there… achievement, and how things look. 

I'd like for you to put yourself in the place of a reader who may be naïve about the potential impact of self-discovery, or perhaps someone new to the Enneagram who treats it somewhat superficially and needs to know its full potential through stories that give specific illustrations. Think about several experiences in your life that stand out as transformative in your own personal work. 

I was in the exchange brokerage business. I had a real estate office, trying to support a family and children. I'd been a teacher and a coach and wasn’t making enough money to support my family. I needed to make money in real estate to survive so a couple of us got together and hired a therapist to help us learn how to sell. We met with him weekly and what it boiled down to was that in order for me to know how people were responding to me I had to know about myself, to see what they were responding to. He was teaching us how to sell, how to relate to people, how to motivate people. But the bottom line was that I had to look at myself in order to do that, coming from the inside rather than applying a lot of techniques of selling on the outside. I had to learn more about who I was so I could come off in a more authentic way, be more believable to people and more trustworthy. That got me on the road to doing the inner work, started me on Gestalt and other therapies, to discover more of who I was. The comedy of the inner work was that it backfired, because then I didn’t want to do the real estate business anymore. That’s when I moved into Rolfing. Working with that therapist was the beginning of transformation for me, the beginning of inner work, inner awareness. 

Any other experiences of awakening?

Going through divorce in the midst of all this study was transformative because it forced me to look at my patterns, my responses, how I dealt with my children through the separation. That was a major shock point. My work with Claudio Naranjo was very transformative, and the Fisher-Hoffman Quadrinity Work, where I looked at my parental patterns and what I received from them, reviewed my life, my history. Claudio tied the Fisher-Hoffman work to the Enneagram, and that gave me a clue as to where all these patterns came from. Those two major experiences got me “on the road,” more in touch with my internal process and working with the process ongoing. 

Ah, so the awareness of the importance of the inner work was a shift for you. What are some particular discoveries you made about yourself in that inner work? 

Back then I think I realized I wasn’t an aggressive kind of sales person. I wasn’t someone who wanted to sell for selling’s sake. I wanted to be a good guy. In retrospect my image was important, so I didn’t want to appear like I was pushy. I had to develop a manner that didn’t appear pushy because how people thought of me was important, it covered a lot of how I related. 

So you discovered part of your inner working was wanting to be a good guy. Did that change somewhat as a consequence of your inner work? Did you find yourself less conscious of image, or did your image change, or your goals change? 

My goals changed somewhat. I became more conscious of my image, more conscious that what I did was important so I would still look good. I became a little more authentic, or at least I was able to play the game a little better so I would look good even though I was trying to push. It’s been so long ago I can hardly remember what it was like then. 

How about moving forward in time, then, to your first study of the Enneagram and uncovering the patterns and habits related to being a Three? What sort of things showed up that were personal to you? 

Well certainly image, achievement, athletics, being out there in front. I'd been a football coach, a baseball coach. That was an achievement very early in my career and I got a really choice spot in a choice school. Being a good coach might be altruistic in itself, helping the students achieve something, but I think I went into coaching because it's out there in front – to get noticed, to have people say, “Oh, just look at that! He’s a great guy!” That was the raw motivation. It was very exciting, challenging, frustrating. I loved being a leader, putting my ideas into practice. It was also an area where I could have self-doubt and pretend I didn’t. I think Threes do that. We’re arrogant in a lot of ways but underneath it is self-doubt, overcompensating for what we haven’t enough of in our lives. For me it was being frightened and pretending I wasn't. Not knowing everything I thought I should know, because you never know enough so you’re always striving to learn more. 

How would people you were coaching have described you?  

I was more inspirational and I think that’s carried on to my life right now – an inspirational kind of teacher. Even when I was teaching at a high school level I think I was more that. I'm not sure how it was, maybe something I’ve observed over the years and feedback I’ve gotten. I’m a minister now and people comment that my lessons are inspirational. It’s not really motivational, it’s not a rah-rah thing anymore. Maybe at one time it was; maybe when I was coaching it was a little more of that, but I think I was a little softer than that. 

And inspiring people toward what? 

Toward doing what I want them to do! (laughter)

Even now it’s a little difficult for you to talk about your feelings – you have the feeling and you get the feedback that you’re inspirational, but it’s still difficult for you to step back and say, “This is how it happens.” 

That’s part of doubting it. At this stage I’m learning more and more to accept the qualities I've developed. I don’t think I would have said that about myself, that awareness or that level of knowing I have now. I’m becoming more assured of who I am, but I’ve spent a lot of work, a lot of time. I don’t think I would naturally talk about my qualities. 

What’s your first recollection of these patterns?

I can take it back to grammar school. I remember how important it was for me to look good -- wanting to be accepted by my peers and look good. It didn’t matter if I was good or not, I wanted to appear good. I can think of one incident where I was late for a baseball game we were playing and I rode up on my bike and everybody cheered and da da da da. I didn’t know that I was that good. Maybe I was, but I never acknowledged myself as being that good. But everybody yelled and I said, “Yeah, I’m here!” 

There was never enough assurance. 

Right, never enough – never enough assurance. Oh, yeah, I still work on it. I don’t know that you ever gain it – there are levels and levels of layers and layers that resurface. What I find for me is that just being aware of it, being conscious of it, I can see it when it comes up and I can just chuckle at it or do something different. And I’m probably a lot smoother with it now. The transformational process has allowed me in part to not act or behave in those ways as intensely as I once did, but certainly it’s there. And attempting to be conscious of those patterns I’ve learned about myself, the Three qualities – and they do come up – is that I can respond differently, or I can chuckle at myself, or say to myself, “Oh, that’s what’s going on,” and get off of it. 

Just observing it and trying not to judge it. 

Yeah, I don’t know that we ever get through our fixation. I think the transformation process helps us become more aware, more conscious, so our behaviors and patterns change. But I think the fixation always remains with us. 

I agree. How about the Fisher-Hoffman work? What for you was transformative about that? 

They call it the Hoffman Quadrinity Process now. I went through the program and then became a teacher, taking groups through the process. Basically, it’s learning about yourself, learning where the patterns come from. You work from zero through puberty, looking at your negative patterns, things you don’t like about yourself; then you look at your parents, your caregivers, and get the thread going through your life as you grow up and see where the patterns come from. Then at least you have a handle on it, and you can choose whether you want to keep it or not. It’s powerful therapy. I think it takes a lot of years off of traditional therapy. The four components of the quadrinity are the body, intellect, emotions, and spirit and there is work in each of those areas.

Any particular pattern that stands out in retrospect that would be illustrative of your learning where the patterns came from? 

Self-doubt. One of the things that was very conflicting for me was that the message I got to be a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, or someone of that nature. I was supposed to be good enough and smart enough to become a professional but my parents discouraged me from studying a musical instrument because “they would spend money on lessons and I would just quit, because I wouldn’t be good enough.” Yet something in me longed to play music at a very early age. That was very conflicting for me… to have that negative expectation put into me. To this day I still struggle trying to learn music, trying to fill that hole. That’s the self-doubt, the message I got and grew up with: “I’m not good enough.”  

So unless you achieved success reasonably easily, you would get impatient with yourself? 

“Impatient” might not be the word. Let’s see, what would I feel? I get frustrated, very frustrated. But I do continue. I keep striving and I usually achieve everything I try. I’m still trying to prove I’m good enough and know enough. Even if it doesn’t work, when I tackle something I keep trying to find ways to make it work. And I do get a result. 

Where music is concerned that result didn’t match some standard you carried. 

Exactly. And it still doesn’t. I’m still dealing with that, still trying to learn. 

And would you say you’re still trying to prove you can do it, or is there still some inner urge? 

That’s an interesting question, Mary! Maybe that’s part of it. I haven’t even looked at that part – of proving I can do it. I want to do it. It’s such a deep desire for me to learn to play music. I do it, but I’m critical because I don’t think I’m good enough, not spontaneous enough, not enough! And I put a lot of obstacles in my way rather than just getting up and playing three chords and making that O.K. It’s like I’ve got to be the best. 

You do have some experience of pleasure with music? 

Yeah. It feels good when I can play along and sing a song, when I can learn new things, when I can perform. When I can perform. I don’t want to be mediocre, to appear mediocre. I need to appear “good.” So I have to consciously make it O.K. to just be how I am with it. But it doesn’t flow that way naturally. Do you see what I’m saying? 

I do. And one of my questions is what kind of resistances do you put in your own way? That’s definitely one of them. 

Yeah. That is it. Even at this point, not that I’m so enlightened, that's probably the thing I need to stay conscious of most often, how I judge myself. Way too much. Way too intensely. I have to constantly do my little self-talk when that comes up. But I take more risks now, do things even though they might not be perfect, after my little self-talk, I don’t have to be perfect, I just do what I do. But it’s not easy underneath. The feelings underneath don’t feel solid or confident or secure. It doesn’t flow naturally. I have to get the courage up, I have to do the self-talk. 

So that’s a real self-initiated energy at this point in your life. 

Right, and it’s a lot better. I do a lot more things from an easy place. But I’m generally pretty conscious of it. I want to say, “Yeah, I do jump into things…” but I don’t quite know how to say it. I’m trying to figure the basic essence underneath all of it and what has worked because I have transformed in some way. 

You're moving into answering another of my questions, “How are you different?” You take more risks now, even when it’s not easy, even when you know it’s not going to be perfect. And you do it in spite of the fact that it’s hard. So that’s a way in which you’ve changed. 

When I look back at it, I did the singing, the performance, to move through some of those inhibitions I had, some of those patterns. And then I created a whole work around it for others. What I taught was to feel the fear and do it anyway. To move through and let the experience teach you something different rather than what's in your head, or the patterns. So basically, that might be my credo right now. If I were going to suggest for Threes – or anyone, actually – to move through their pattern, to get right up to the edge and push it. And for me, performance and looking good is the edge. And I’ve got to be willing to get out there and not look good. Or at least in my opinion not look good. I still might look good for others. But for me I might think I’m not good enough, might have doubts about it, and get away from the image of trying to look good and just do what I do. 

Diving in rather than walking away from it. As you look back over your life, do you feel you've sought these transformative experiences because of some urge in you, some dissatisfaction or thirst, or have some of them just landed on you with grace? 

I think both are true. I’ve always been a searcher, a gatherer, in spite of the self-doubt. And maybe the gathering was to try to compensate for the self-doubt. Gathering techniques, information, etc. Somehow that drive was in me innately. I started meditation really early and that felt right for me, something I felt aligned with. That moved me into more and more spiritual work. But I aligned with it, and I did have a hunger for it. It was something innately that I had, and it was nurtured by wanting to do it right. 

When you use the term “spiritual” what does that mean to you? 

It means so many things. Let me see what it meant back in those days – it was being in touch with some energy or power or God, of aligning with that in some way. I think that’s probably true for me today, too – just trusting and knowing this is a friendly universe, that things happen and it’s only our perception that makes them good or bad. Changing the way I think. Spirit is something within me and out there, too. It’s a Gestalt. 

You’ve mentioned several teachers or processes that have helpful to you along the way. Are there other resources you’ve found? Other people or books or practices that have been particularly valuable for you beyond what you’ve already mentioned? 

Lots. The whole Buddhist teachings. I was very involved with Buddhist teachings for quite a while and still am, in a way. That’s really helped me. Some of the East Indian teachings I’ve studied, the work in seminary I did to become a minister. Interpreting the bible metaphysically and how many of the events are part of our own lives. That’s certainly part of my transformation. Working with different people, different teachers – Buddhist teachers, Jewish teachers, Christian teachers. Integrating all of that has helped me along the way. I’m still working with that, I’m still “transforming” if that’s the right word. I’m much more secure in myself now than I ever was. And I’m still doing the work I need to do. So many books I couldn't begin to name them. I don't read much fictional material, but spiritual books, transformational books, reading about the people who've written them: it’s who wrote the book that gives it credence for me. What’s their background, where are they coming from, what are their experiences? You know, there are so many people writing books whose history doesn’t align – I just don’t feel their depth. Someone takes a weekend workshop and all of a sudden they become experts.  

Based on your experience, your own transformative process, what is your image or model for this whole process of change? How do you describe it? 

I look at the seasons or the weather or the growing of a tree -- how things happen with different environmental influences. And we have seasons of our lives we can relate to the seasons of the year. There are times when you gather and grow, times when you have to give back – in the later years you’re doing more service work, not struggling so much to survive or you get more security with yourself, whereas in the earlier years you’re struggling to raise a family, slaying dragons. So maybe the seasons of the year, seasons of one’s life. How all the different influences affect things, and things go on, whether you do anything or not… you’re going to grow. 

Is there a cycle, as with seasons? 

I think so. I think you gather and do a lot of work, then you need some time to digest it and to put it into practice. Then you go to another spurt, another peduncle that Chardin talked about. Life is like a spiral.

And where do you feel you are? 

I’m 61, definitely in my senior years, in the early winter of the process. I’m moving more and more into community work, more volunteer kinds of things, moving into that now in a conscious way and it feels good and feels right. Not that you can’t do it in different part of your life. But I didn’t do it earlier. I don’t know if this is true of Threes, but it might be that Threes are loners, do things a lot alone and don’t do a lot of things in groups. It’s true for me that I’ve been pretty much of a loner. Not that I haven’t worked with people, but more self-sufficient. It’s getting to be more that I really enjoy sharing and working with others. I’m glad you’re doing this. I’m glad I was able to help.